Note: J-Man is giving me a hard time about my slowness in getting questions up... I must confess that I am presently finishing my final grad school project and unfortunately (or is it fortunate?) for you folks, that takes priority over me getting these questions up for you to ponder. Monday will be it... after that, we'll return to Zinn when we reach that time frame in Brinkley. Thanks to a couple of you who have answered every question... that will not go unnoticed.
25. Pay attention to Zinn's reference to the "cult of domesticity." It is very important and will come up again in the Brinkley text. Although I feel that Zinn covers this topic the best.
27. In your notebook, you'll need to know these ladies and their specifics:
Anne Hutchinson, Abigail Adams, Margaret Corbin (aka, Dirty Kate), Deborah Sampson Garnet, Molly Picher, Mary Wollstonecraft (although English), Amelia Bloomer, Emma Willard (I visited her school in Troy, NY), Dr. Harriot Hunt, Elizabeth Blackwell, Lucy Stone, Sarah and Angelina Grimke, Margaret Fuller, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Dorothea Dix, Frances Wright, Lucretia Mott, and Sojourner "Ain't I a Women" Truth.
24 comments:
24. Boorstin goes much more in-depth with Mary Dyer’s story, depicting her multiple offenses against the Puritan community of Massachusetts, and her eventual hanging as retribution for those offenses. He also makes it very clear that her chief intent was to achieve martyrdom, which was a result of her Quaker upbringing. Never does Boorstin suggest that her efforts were motivated by feminism. Zinn only mentions Mary Dyer briefly; however, the way in which he mentions her is interestingly misleading. He says “Twenty years later, the one person back in Massachusetts Bay who had spoken up for [Anne Hutchinson] during her trial, Mary Dyer, was hanged…” By wording it this way, he suggests that Mary Dyer’s support of Anne Hutchinson was a partial cause of her execution twenty years, when the two events may not even be related. Such sentences show Zinn’s heavy bias. Both Authors used Mary Dyer’s to support their biased views. Boorstin uses her to show the extent of Quaker pursuit of martyrdom, and Zinn uses her to support feminism. Whether she was or wasn’t a feminist can’t be told by these two books, as it is too convoluted by their bias.
25. The “cult of domesticity” was similar to racism in that it was a fabricated by the dominating class – in this case men, in the case of racism the upper class – to keep themselves in such a dominant position. The cult of domesticity created a false “equality” by establishing women with their own realm of workmanship, such as midwifery and tutoring. The premise was that men would do their own work and women would do their own work. However, it was merely a false equality because it still kept women in the house, and still denied them certain rights, such as suffrage, thus still keeping men in power. So the cult of domesticity did provide a fix for the rising feminist sentiments, however its flaws led to its eventual downfall.
24: Mary Dyer appears in both books but in Boorstin she is represented as a strong believer in her faith and was hung for her Quaker beliefs and hung by the Puritans, but from Zinn he depicts her very quickly in the case of Anne Hutchinson showing that she was not only a Quaker but a beginning feminist speaking up for Hutchinson. Either story you look at there is a clear depiction of how strong of a person she was and how willing she was to stand up for her beliefs either it be Quaker or feminist.
25: The “cult of domesticity” explains how women were given an alternative to the real working world but for women. They were given jobs like men but their jobs were limited to being a midwife, teaching, and other “womanly” jobs. This was created because there was a need among women for equality and therefore this would give them a false sense of equality with men. Though the cult was created to better women’s positions in society there was no overlooking the fact that a woman could not vote, own land, divorce a husband, or earn the same amount of money as a man.
24. Mary Dyer in Boorstin’s version, is told more in detail and covers much more. He starts telling her story from fall of 1695, when she and her comrades were both first banished to death and he continues to tell of her struggles step by step. He describes each time she was tried, the sentence, and he replies. Her devotion to her cause for God and just suffering. Her story is portrayed with an almost respectful (if that is the right word) tone in the language he uses. “A week later the three Quakers were to be executed. Mary Dyer marched to the gallows between the two young men condemned with her, while drums beat loudly to prevent any words they might preach on the way from being heard by the watching crowd. When and official asked Mrs. Dyer if she did not feel shame at walking publicly between two young men, she answered ‘It is an hour of the greatest joy I can enjoy in this world. No eye can see. No ear can hear, no tongue can speak, no heart can understand the sweet incomes and refreshing of the spirit of the Lord which I now enjoy.’ Still the Puritan officials tried to deprive her of the martyrs’ ecstasy.” (pg 39). The detail and language he uses is vivid.
Zinn’s mention of Mary Dyer is more brief, when speaking about Anne Hutchinson. He says “Then she went to the shores of Long Island, where Indians who had been defrauded of their land thought she was one of their enemies; they killed her and her family. Twenty years later, the one person back in Massachusetts Bay who had spoken up for her during her trial, Mary Dyer, was hanged by the government of the colony, along with two other Quakers, for rebellion, sedition, and presumptuous obtruding themselves.” (pg 109). His tone seems almost ironic, that the one woman who had spoken to her ended up hanged. Zinn makes the two events seem related, as though Mary’s outspoken defense of Anne Hutchinson was related to her later being hung. Zinn’s tone suggests the support and evidence of feminism of the time, while Boorstin’s tone shows how devoted the Quakers were to their causes.
25. The “cult of domesticity” depicts womens role’s and rights. The “cult of domesticity” was used to keep women in the place, while alluding that men and women were really “equal.” Women could now participate in work like tutoring or nursing. Women had their own work to do and so did men. But women still had to take on the tasks of house work and taking care of the children in addition to this new “freedom.” Women were still kept in the house and denied individual rights and freedoms. The two were far from equal, as women were still denied rights and had to do more work.
24. Mary Dyer, according to boorstin, is a not as much a feminist as she is a well brought up quaker attempting to battle the Puritans in Massachusets. he goes in depth about her actions against the puritans and even brings up her execution, which he depicts as a concequence for rising up against the puritans of massachusetts. In A Peoples History of the United States, Howard Zinn mentions Mary Dyer only very briefly. He shows however, in this small passage how she stood up for Anne Hutchinson. He has a very different outlook on why Mary was hanged. He says it was a result of her strength to back up anne hutchinson. Zinn shows how weighted his opinions are in this brief mentioning. Boorstin emphasises an aspect of quaker beleif, while zinn heavily pushes feminism. Both of the authors used mary to depict their bias in different ways.
24. Zinn barely mentions Dyer, and implies that it was for standing up for Anne Hutchinson. He pushes that her death was for feminism. However, Boorstin very much makes it known that Mary Dyer died for her martyrdom (even going back to where she had been sentenced to make sure she was hanged), and doesn't mention Anne.
25. The "cult of domesticity" was a way for men to appear to not be sexist. However, it kept women in the home (hence domesticity in the name) and still made them work as hard. The theory was that women and men would take care of thir own work. Women got "woman jobs" like taechers and midwifes, though they still didn't have the right to vote or divorce, and men still continued to make more and own land.
~Chris Sogge~
24. Zinn merely describes Miss Mary Dyer as an early feminist Quaker who was hung. He insinuates that her motive was the oppression of women and she was merely a feminist (bad choise of words). Boorstin goes much deeper into detail about her, describing her journey and her "exile" and eventual death by hanging. Boorstin gives details on her oppositions against the Puritans in Massachusettes and makes her motive appear to be either rectifying her religion or becoming an idol of the Quaker community, attempting others to follow in her footsteps to better the world.
25. The "Cult of Domesticity" was pretty much just dominance "justified" by rascism and/or gender. Rich white men would flaunt their stuff and say that the black population was not even close to being worth of even standing near them. A man would also claim dominance over a woman based on the past traditions of men being better and women had worked in the house (even though she was only there because her husband had forced her there). Basically, it's a load of crap that the men put forth and nobody would challenge it on fear of punishment or death.
24. While Boorstin goes through great length in telling the captivating story of Mary Dyer, Zinn tells a much more condensed version. In The Colonial Experience, the main issue was religion. The Quakers st that time would come to the Puritans' land and preach endlessly. No matter what the Puritans did, the Quaker preachers (like Mary Dyer) would not leave. In fact, they strove to be martyrs for their faith. In Boorstin's book, Mary was seemingly hanged only because of her faith, and her refusal to back down. This is very different than in Zinn, where Mary Dyer is only brought up as a support for Anne Hutchinson. Mary is much more of a hero in Boorstin's book, and the topic of feminism was only really brought up in Zinn's version. It was in this version that makes it seem like Mary was hanged for both being a woman and preaching. This "twist" on Mary's story can be explained by the different bias' of the two books, and the different overall themes of the chapters that Mary's story came up in. It is interesting, though, that feminism isn't really brought up in Boorstin's book, and certainly not connected to the story of Mary Dyer.
25. This chapter(ch.6) was, overall, focused on feminism. But Zinn goes deeper in explaining the "cult of domesticity" that he reveals was evident during this time. This was the only sense of equality for women of this time. It is obvious that these women were really just being used and distracted, though. This "cult" that popped up was because of the feminist movements that started around this time. It was the only identity that a woman could have, so many of them opted to at least have an identity than be in the shadow of men all their lives. This cult that was created was also mainly to give a boost to the economy by providing cheap labor. The sad part was that it worked.
24. Boorstin and Zinn cover Mary Dyer differently. Zinn uses Mary's story to show the inequality between men and women during Colonial times. Zinn barely mentions Mary's name. He talks about Mary as a supporter of Anne Hutchinson. Boorstin presents Mary's story to show the struggle between Quakers and Puritans. Boorstin devotes much more time to Ms. Dyer. He explains her story fully, and shows her martyrdom for her religion. These different uses of Mary Dyer's story show the different point of views of the authors. Zinn's Marxist view of history emphasizes class struggles and the creation of barriers between people. Thus, Zinn is required to show us overwhelming evidence of the oppression of women. In Marxism, religion is the opiate of the masses. The division between religious groups is ignored because in Marxism it does not matter. Boorstin is not writing from a Marxist viewpoint, so he can interpret Mary's story more liberally.
25. Zinn's reference to the "cult of domesticity" shows that women were trying to give themselves equal importance in society; although they could not get equal rights. The "cult of domesticity" made women "separate but equal" to men. The women would do all the housework, care for, and teach the children while the man worked and was part of the political process. It seemed like a fair trade off, but the men were the only ones who had rights.
25.) The "Cult of Domesticity" depicts the difference between men's and women's job in early America. Women were generally confined to the household, taking care of the children and the house. Women could also be a midwife or teacher. The cult was established to give the women a false sense of equality, but in reality, women were still very subordinate to men and couldn't do most of the daily jobs that men were able to do. WOOOHOOO DONE!
24. The histories of Mary Dyer almost seem unrelated from Boorstin's version to Zinn's. Boorstin goes into a lengthy history about her struggles and incorporates her voice through dialogue; whereas Zinn briefly, almost as an after thought, mentions her in context with another character, Anne Hutchinson. This might have been for the simple reason that each author was relating Mary Dyer to different subjects. Boorstin was trying to get the point across of the quest for martyrdom, while Zinn is describing feminism.
25. The cult of domesticity was both good news to the female world and bad news for the male world. Women were now looked upon as "separate but equal" in the working world. Women could hold jobs such as shopkeepers, bakers, staymakers, and even created a monopoly in midwifery, but earned 1/4 to 1/2 the wages as men for the same job. This opened slightly the once completely confined doors in the female world, however their lives were still determined for them in who they married; some women compared this to death in that it "terminate(d) (her) present existence" (pg. 114). Although the cult of domesticity helped stabilize the growing economy, the men saw this equality as getting the women ready to utilize the space given them to prepare for a new life.
24. While Mary Dyer is a noted woman in colonial history, Boorstin and Zinn provide two different emphasizes on her role. Boorstin, a historian concerned mainly with cultural history, placed much more importance on Mary Dyer’s role in expressing the Quaker persistence in demonstrating their religiosity. He goes into detail as to the events leading up to her trial and eventual execution. Zinn, on the other hand, mentions Mary Dyer merely as a byword, as a supporting fact to the case of Anne Hutchinson. While Boorstin provides insight as to why Mary Dyer behaved as zealously as she did, Zinn leaves it at being “rebellious, seditious, and presumptuous obtruding” of herself. A possibility for this difference could be that the story of the point of view of Mary Dyer is one often heard, so Zinn did not feel the need to focus on her as he chose to relay the stories of lesser heard voices.
25. The formation of the “cult of domesticity” was an attempt to make woman feel somewhat equal to men, but still place them in a separate category. Much emphasis was placed upon the woman’s role of the importance of rearing children of good morals, a fundamental role in society. While this praise of the woman’s newly emphasized role sufficed for a while in maintaining stability, the simple occurrence of this “cult” shows that the women want for equality was becoming difficult to restrain. Women did not have the right to vote, were not allowed to own property, was only paid a quarter of what a man was paid, and were dissuaded from pursuing fields in medicine and law. The “cult of domesticity” would only appease the women of America for so long.
24. The story of Mary Dyer is told in both Boorstin and Zinn’s accounts and is used differently in both to show different points. For Boorstin, Mary Dyer is an example of the Quaker’s search for the ultimate Truth through martyrdom. She was depicted in his accounts as heroic Quaker as she fought against the Puritans. However, in Zinn’s account, while only mentioned on a brief sentence, it makes it sounds like Dyer was also a feminist activist. Zinn only mentions that Dyer was hung/hanged with two other Quaker, and then says that Dyer was the only one who spoke up in the trial of Anne Hutchinson. While Boorstin makes it clear that Dyer was hung/hanged for her dedication to Quakerism, Zinn makes it sound like it was the Quakerism along with the fact that she had spoken up for women’s rights.
25. The “cult of domesticity” was the cover up for sexism just like the emphasis on a slave system already existing in Africa was used as a reason to make slavery ok. The woman was “separate but equal” because while her work was just as equally important, it was very separate from what only a man could do. Being a woman meant you couldn’t vote, own property, choose who to marry, have the same wages as men for the same work, or go to college. The “cult of domesticity’ grouped all women into one category and one equally separate lifestyle.
24) Mary Dyer was described in much more detail in Boorstin’s book, whereas Zinn simply seems to skim over her efforts of martyrdom. There is also an inconsistency between the two accounts. Boorstin says Mary Dyer was sentenced to the gallows once but set free after being forced to watch two other Quakers hang, but was sentenced a second and final time around a year later. Zinn, however said she hung at the same time the other two Quakers were killed. Surely one of these stories has to be incorrect…
24. Boorstin goes more into depth in Mary Dyer’s story, telling of her many escapades, but shows her as being a die-hard Quaker, which is counterpointed by Zinn’s suggestions that she was not only a that, but also an early Feminist. Both accountings show her as being a very strong willed person, very set in her beliefs and willing to give much, even her life for them, but the difference was mainly in the Quaker/Quaker-Feminist spins of Boorstin and Zinn respectively.
25. Though the “cult of domesticity” implied that Women and Men were equal in some ways, it also enforced the women’s position to be within the household, or other tasks that were deemed to be suitable for their weaker nature, such as tutoring or nursing. Men obviously in this cult were seen as being higher ranked, due to their higher physical strength, and though it claimed some moral equality, women were still denied jobs and rights easily allowed to the men.
24. Mary Dyer is a character covered in both Boorstin and Zinn. However, each puts a different spin on her story. Please identify this difference, and why do you think they differ?
The difference between Boorstin’s interpretation and Zinn’s interpretation of the event seems to be that Boorstin viewed it primarily as a religious issue whilst Zinn viewed it as primarily a sex issue. I believe the two differ on the issue mainly because Zinn views it through the lens of class/race/sex war whilst Boorstin views it merely as a religious dispute.
25. Pay attention to Zinn's reference to the "cult of domesticity." It is very important and will come up again in the Brinkley text. Although I feel that Zinn covers this topic the best.
The cult of domesticity can best be described as the positive, even idyllic, view of the house wife who cooks, cleans, makes and raises babies, and; to quote Housekeeping Monthly of 13 May 1955; “…knows her place.”
24. In boorstin's version Dyers' story is told more in depth, and he represents her more as a serious quaker. Even staing that she willingly went to her death for her religion, even though she was not actuay hung the first time she was supposed to be. In Zinn's version we see a less detailed story, which almost leads me to wonder if Boorstin's was not 100% factual but rather more stories passed on (not saying that Zinn is either). Zinn also represents that she was also a strong femenist, which was a point not covere by boorstin. This s probably brecause Boorstin's book is less focused on sex issues and equality there.
25. I see this as the cult of the house wife...only a lot more extreme considering how few rights the woman actualy had at the time...simply put
24. The difference between Boorstin's portrayl of Mary Dyer and Zinn's portrayl of Mary Dyer are their emphasises on her story. However, both authors use Dyer to back up their own points, or rather, points of view. For Boorstin, Mary Dyer is an example of the deep Quaker faith and how all Dyer wanted was her martyrdom. As Boorstin put it, “A week later the three Quakers were to be executed. Mary Dyer marched to the gallows between the two young men condemned with her...when an official asked Mrs. Dyer if she did not feel shame at walking publicly between two young men, she answered ‘It is an hour of the greatest joy I can enjoy in this world. No eye can see. No ear can hear, no tongue can speak, no heart can understand the sweet incomes and refreshing of the spirit of the Lord which I now enjoy.’ Still the Puritan officials tried to deprive her of the martyrs’ ecstasy.” However, Zinn's leading lady was Anne Hutchinson, whom he emphasized was a leader in early feminism, and Dyer just the side dish: "“Then [Anne Hutchinson] went to the shores of Long Island...[Indians] killed her and her family. Twenty years later, the one person back in Massachusetts Bay who had spoken up for her during her trial, Mary Dyer, was hanged by the government of the colony, along with two other Quakers, for rebellion, sedition, and presumptuous obtruding themselves.” Zinn made it seem like Dyer's defense of Hutchinson was the reason for her hanging without exploring her repeated offenses and banishments, whereas Boorstin portrays these as two completely separate events. Zinn linked the two women to back up his point about the oppression of feminism rather misleadingly, while Boorstin goes into much detail about Mary Dyer's trials and tribulations in the name of martyrdom.
25. The "cult of domesticity" was a way for men to maintain the social status quo with women without seeming sexist or offensive. It dictates that women and men were equal, but placed them in separate roles: women in the home, taking care of children, while the men did everything that really mattered like politics and finances. As Zinn puts it, "The cult of domesticity for the woman was a way of pacifying her with a doctrine of "separate but equal"---giving her work equally as important as the man's, but separate and different." Socially, however, the woman's 'work' was never considered as important as a man's, or as requiring of skill and intelligence, thus making them still inferior.
24. Mary Dyer is a character covered in both Boorstin and Zinn. However, each puts a different spin on her story. Please identify this difference, and why do you think they differ?
Zinn sees the Dyer story as a Feminist struggle, while Boorstin expresses it in terms of religion (Quaker martyrdom). Perhaps Zinn’s communist beliefs (and therefore probably shunning of religion) caused him to view Dyer’s escapades more as a struggle for freedom rather than religious fulfillment.
25. Pay attention to Zinn's reference to the "cult of domesticity." It is very important and will come up again in the Brinkley text. Although I feel that Zinn covers this topic the best.
The cult of domesticity refers to men and women’s places in society—specifically, that the woman should stay in the household to cook, clean, and raise children.
Chapter 6
25. The "cult of domesticity" also known as "The cult of true womanhood" was a restriction placed on women in America. This institution involoved women representing perfect virtues, as a caring, loving, and devoted mother and wife. It also encouraged the women to be religious and to support their husbands in everything. This "cult" was extremely sexist and was a key way to keep women "in their place". The most frustrating part of this concept was the importance of submission to men. In a way I feel like this practice was fooling women into thinking they had important duties while really they were becoming more and more victims of inequality.
Taylor Oster 2009
24. Boorstin went further into depth on Dyer's history. She was a main example of his when explaining passion in martyrdom and the persistence of a Quaker woman. Zinn however, only mentions a quick pick, as she is not his main focus in his example, just a minor character in the fight for woman's right and he barely mentions any other actions she committed either for woman's rights or her experience as a Quaker undertaking martyrdom. Boorstin's main idea was the Quakers, and thus his main argument at that time in his novel. Zinn, however; was focusing on feminism, and so, only mentioned that small fact of Dyer's story.
25. The cult was a scheme to gain power for a single group.
White.
Rich.
Men.
They developed a false sense of equality between men and women and tried to prevent questioning of their judgment, by, at the same time, promoting mens 'superior' sex. Women were to remain in the home and men out in the field or in the factory or lounging in luxury (in the case of upper class). This created restrictions on women even though the cult claimed equality between men and women.
Zinn Chapter 6:
24. Though Mary Dyer was mentioned in Zinn and Boorstin’s novels, she was given two different stories. In Boorstin’s novel Mary Dyer was given a longer account of what happened and had quotes from her and had a detailed account, but in Zinn’s novel there was just a few sentences on Mary Dyer and it just said she was hung with two other Quakers. There was probably two different accounts because Zinn is a more general history of the Americas so he was not focused on small individual people while Boorstin was more concentrated on the little people and had more time and was more willing to give details on people like Mary Dyer.
24. Mary Dyer is a character covered in both Boorstin and Zinn. However, each puts a different spin on her story. Please identify this difference, and why do you think they differ?
Boorstin was mainly focused on Dyer's "need" to be a martyr and how that made the difference between Quaker and Puritan societies. Zinn is a lot quieter about Mary Dyer, but when he did talk about her, it was always referring her as a supporter of Anne Hutchinson.
25. Pay attention to Zinn's reference to the "cult of domesticity." It is very important and will come up again in the Brinkley text. Although I feel that Zinn covers this topic the best.
The cult of domesticity was a way of saying that women were equal, but not really allowing them to be. It gave women "seprate but equal" duties to perform, saying that housework was a job for women, and it was equal to jobs that men had, but still seperate.
Mira Schlosberg
24. Mary Dyer is a character covered in both Boorstin and Zinn. However, each puts a different spin on her story. Please identify this difference, and why do you think they differ?
Boorstin's coverage of Mar Dyer is much more detailed, while Zinn's is only a passing refference. This is probably the case because Boorstin chose to go in depth into all of the offences commited by Dyer, in order to show just what the situation was. Zinn did not go in depth into Dyer because he spent muchmore time talking about Anne Hutchinson, and othe rwomen who are never mentioned by Boorstin.
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